Turns out, I don’t like keeping my silence. I am unable to stand idly by with an umbrella in-hand while bullshit is being thrown all over the innocents. I enjoy coaxing out the hypocrites, the insane, the blustery, the annoying, the misinformed, and the assholes, just so I can poke them in the pudge and run away in high-pitched giggles. Inevitably, I always get bitten in the process, but whatever, the wound heals and in the end they’re the ones that end up looking like idiots. So, for your enjoyment, I am now including an argument (dated late October 2012 and held on Facebook, of course) that I would classify to be by far the worst and most annoying argument I have ever been involved in.
So it begins.
(Hold onto your butts.)
Sarah: I wonder how many people on my friend list plan to vote (or already have) for Romney despite all of his blatant lying, bad math skills, and hatred of women, simply because he is the Republican candidate? Show of hands guys, its OK to step forward proudly – you know you want to.
Utterly proving my point, Original Poster (remember them from last time?) steps in to set me straight.
Original Poster: ummmm and when has Obama Your President told the Truth On Anything???? come on Now you know he has been caught in some lies himself too all of them are not Honest but I say go with the lesser of the 2 Evils!!! and we all know which way all the Liberals are voting so don’t get Pissed you Ask……
Sarah: I am not voting for obama this year, but i do not think that i know of any lies he has been outright caught in. Romney on the other hand, has flip flopped his entire time running. I don’t see how anyone can trust him after that.
I recognize that I am not being entirely truthful here, about Obama being caught in lies. Just go with it. I was clearly typing from my phone and probably didn’t give a shit this early in the game.
At this point, we can introduce a new character, Miss Punky Bruiser, defender of the innocent….sometimes. When it amuses her.
Punky Bruiser: very true about Romney. I think i have a few videos of him being for everything he’s against now. And i think the lesser of two evils would be someone who doesnt want to take women’s rights away.
OP hits back: Well have you seen our debt I don’t think Obama is very good in math either!!!! and you don’t have to worry I think your guy will get back in cause I do vote but I still think it is rigged and they put who they want IN no matter how we vote and I don’t think any rights would get taken away other than the one Obama has already taken!!!! and how can you trust Obama after what you have seen him out right do for 4 years now???
To be clear, I don’t intend to descend too deeply into criticism of the many erroneous claims about Obama – the original FB posts take care of that pretty well. Let’s just roll our eyes and move on.
Punky: Firstly i have seen data that has shown it getting better. Please show me data to support that. And tell me what rights he’s taken. But i do also think its rigged.
OP: I will not go into it cause I don’t want to get a fire started lets just say if Obama is back in we are all screwed and I agree with [Norma Bates] they will put him back in no matter what the vote!!!!
Sarah, light-heartedly still at this point: Obama hasn’t taken away any rights… he has actually made sure that we (women) don’t lose the rights that we are entitled to (planned parenthood, equal pay, abortion rights). but I will say this… supposedly, no matter who is elected, the job market is predicted to get better. So yay? Also, yes, the electoral college method of voting is bull and should be reformed to majority rule. But even if that happened for this election Romney would still lose, because even the Mormons have called him a lying idiot. If Uncle Frank says it’s bad…
OP, not taking the hint that nobody wants to be angry this time: He has done some illegal shit in office and we all know it!!!! just wish his whore of a mom had believed in abortion so he would not be here I guess we have had our first welfare President
OK, so… abortion is fine as long as it’s ethnic cleansing? Gotcha.
Punky: What is the illegal stuff?
OP: The Obama care which is a thousand pages long is Unconstitutional due to the fact it is forced on you but no one seems to care about that as long as they think it is something for free they want it and it is not free this is the fire I did not want to start but you really need to read more of the thousand pages ( as I like to call it) and you will see what I mean!!!! and he and his sorry as wife just suck I am so sick of her ass talking about fat people and all that shit too!!!! soon they will be telling you what you can and can’t eat you just wait!!!!
Punky, rolling over to show her belly to the beast:I do need to read up on that. I mostly have no opinion since i haven’t but i do think it makes it easier to get health care. Which is a good thing. Keeping gays from getting married is unconstitutional too so all presidents are at fault there but at least he is trying to do good. And no other president has actually got something done about healthcare after saying they would.
Sarah: I don’t understand why its being 1,000 pages is a big deal? Does that somehow make it more unconstitutional than if it were only 800 pages? All bills/acts are generally long; for instance, an act passed in 2005 (sponsored by a Republican) is only 68 words less than Obama’s Aff. Care Act (http://www.opencongress.org/articles/view/1375-For-Bills-in-Congress-How-Long-is-Long– ).
As far as I can tell, healthcare isn’t literally being forced on you… they’re using an annual penalty as an incentive to obtain healthcare, a penalty that very few would actually end up paying (my assumption) given that if the cost of healthcare for your family is more than 8% of your household income, you are exempt from the penalty fee. Now, I DO NOT agree with the Act; I personally believe we should implement something akin to the NHS. So, I would prefer not to ‘start a fire’ on this subject, either, because I honestly don’t care enough about it.
The fun part: how do you feel about the Patriot Act? If any legal Act is actually illegal, that would be my choice for worst. And since Obama is upholding it (albeit possibly reformed) I do not support him for that. My biggest problem with Obama to date is that despite the good things he has accomplished, I do not feel it is enough.
And Michelle Obama is basically forced by tradition to choose a cause to champion… obesity is a very good one. America is the unhealthiest (fattest) country in the world. It’s despicable. We need to nip it in the bud at childhood, if possible. Not that her opinion is ever going to make a difference, but I applaud her for trying. But seriously Mobama…. fix school lunch content.
OP, who really does not have all that much to do: all I have to say is that it is Unconstitutional to force anything on anyone in this country I am not about to read some bullshit that is why I told [Punky] I did not want to start this fire, The Government can not force you to Buy something you DO NOT WANT!!! That is what is Unconstitutional about it all and the billion pages is so people will get board and not see how they are getting screwed on it so as always we can agree to disagree on this one!!! I have better things to do.
The tokenness of Republican brush-offs amazes me. Their favorites: “I have better things to do.”, “Get a life!”, “YOUR Obama says [insert bullshit claim here]”, “Your a hypocrite!!!”, “Grow up!”. Highly unoriginal and 99.999% incorrect.
Now, with pleasure, I introduce a new character, White Knight, who stands up for the honor of the tread-upon when he can focus long enough to do so.
White Knight: You pay taxes for roads to be made and maintained, for the police to keep the streets safe, for social security, I could go on. Hell, if you want to drive you must have car insurance but that’s OK I guess.
Oh, but enforcing people to have health insurance, something that ensures the well being of your life, that’s wrong.
What I hate is that most people do not come to the conclusion that this is unconstitutional on their own. Have you read the constitution and truly understand how and why it is such? I doubt that. No, the general populace hear the brain washers preach their terror and panic into the people who will listen to anything that will fuel their thirst for hate and bigotry.
Bravo, White Knight! I may just love you for that.
Alas, I must now introduce the true villain of this blog post, one who is much darker than De-Ville from the last Intellectual Convo. Her grammar is better, but her vitriol, incendiary comments, and intolerance of me and all I stand for is clearly expressed. Mother Superior rides in on a black high-horse, fully expecting her comments to be accepted and not challenged in the least. This is often the folly into which deep-Southerners fall into- they exist in a bubble and they tend to forget that there are people who do not follow their pre-Civil War era mindset. This is fortunate for me, in that I have plenty of material for humor; not so fortunate in that it dissolves relationships. I assure you that I am totally OK with no longer having this person as a (miniscule) part of my life. I am not affected in the least. The problem lies with the support this person has received. I do not believe that this person deserved the support that she was granted, and no one since, not even Norma Bates and Punky Bruiser, normally reasonable people, will admit any wrongdoing on Mother Superior’s part. It’s disappointing to say the least. But moving on.
Mother Superior: Guess it’s about as bad as voting for Obama simply because he is black….and I am so tired of hearing this abortion garbage….Um, life does begin at conception, and as far as rape goes….the Republican Party does agree that it’s ok to have an abortion if this is the case or if the woman’s life is in danger. They just don’t promote it. That being said I for one am sick and tired of my tax-paying dollars going to give some trash person who doesn’t care to use birth control a freakin Abortion!
Cringe cringe so much cringe. My ‘fucking bitch’ alarm bells went off here. MS comes out of left-field with her bullshit scoop full and at the ready. Seriously? MS thinks the Republican party is accepting of abortions through rape and incest? Yeah… just like the dude who said that women’s bodies have natural defenses against pregnancy resulting from rape, and therefore the lying bitches should not require abortions. Utmost naivete exhibited here. But on that note… why SHOULD the Republican party support abortion in the case of rape or incest? It makes them hypocritical; this child, regardless of the means of conception, did not ask for existence and by their own logic, should not be punished, no matter the circumstances. I honestly have more respect for the idiots who say so, as they at least have the decency to be consistent.
OP: FYI to [White Knight] Hell NO I don’t someone forcing me to do any dam thing even my health insurance that I don’t want or like and is not at all free but hey believe what you want it will be too late to Bitch about it later when you see some people know more than you think. and what I meant by not reading the stuff cause it is bullshit well government wrote it I assume Not You so I would not believe a dam word of it so why would I waste my time reading it?? it was nothing at you personally.
Amen [Mother Superior] thank you and if some bitch don’t want a baby she can also choose to close her dam leg’s how easy is that??!!!! but I did not want to go there but oh well I did .
MS: Also, there is much more to being a valuable President and running this country than the people having more rights…..we live in America we will always have rights. And, Obamacare….Really!!? Do you know what this entails??
And as far as Michelle Obama goes, she’s probably spent more money than any other President’s wife thus far…..when they went overseas she spent thousands of dollars on French lingerie….Really!!??? 4 years with him in office and economy is even worse and people are literally hanging on by a thread. Ok, I am done with my rant now….this is just an issue I feel very sure and strong about!:)
Clearly. But unfortunately for her, this is also an issue that I feel very strong about. Unleash the hounds.
Sarah: [Mother Superior] and [Original Poster], I want you to know that I love you both. Please remember this, because I am about to go into an emotional tirade, and I want you to know that despite it, I mean no real harm with my words. With that being said…
HOW DARE YOU call any woman trash that is put into the situation where abortion is necessary. Seriously, how fucking dare you. Making the decision to have an abortion is one of the most difficult decisions there is, and to act as if that woman doesn’t care or doesn’t matter or should suffer and watch her child suffer because she can’t afford to feed it (just one example) is one of the most horrible things you could say aloud (to me). It physically hurts me to hear those words spoken by people that I care about. I assume that you both were lucky enough to never have to face that decision, and thank god for it; but I would stake my life that each of you know at least four people that have had to face that difficult decision themselves, whether it be abortion or just obtaining Plan B (I think most Republicans view that also as abortion – am I correct?) I believe in judge not that ye be not judged – it is not the place of anybody to meddle in someone else’s affairs, especially in something so personal. You need to make the decision that is best for you and solely you, and you should NEVER attempt to tell (or legislate) how another woman lives her life. In my humble opinion, I do not understand how someone with such a beautiful daughter could look into her innocent eyes everyday and think that limiting her choices (and chances for success, in the case of teen pregnancy) as an adult woman (who will have enough difficulty making it through the world without the stricter limitations that Republicans call for) is a good, kind thing. It is a disservice to every woman, including yourself, that you would seek to support making life much more difficult for your own gender. Accidents happen, that’s life. And to say something as asinine as ‘close your legs’… how is that helpful? We all know that sexuality presents strong urges that are difficult to resist. If children are taught proper sex education and protection options, we can lower the risk, but in the end it’s inevitable. Are you seriously advocating punishing a child to be potentially unwanted and unloved (as I feel I was by my father) or worse, simply because you personally feel a woman should be punished for her mistake? Sex/slut shaming has GOT to stop, especially from women. You both need to learn to be empathetic. I am horrified by what I have read today. I honestly expected better from you, [Mother Superior]. For further reading:http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-personhood.htm . This article explores the truth regarding abortion. In my own words, in case you don’t want to read: The brain & central nervous system does not fully develop until the 7th month. Given that most abortions are completed by the end of first trimester, not only does the ‘baby’ not feel any pain, it’s basically a piece of vegetation, alive in the same way that a tree or flower is alive; it breathes, it exists, but there is no pain, no conscious being. It’s not a person. Yes, technically, life begins at conception. Are you killing a human being with abortion? No, you most definitely are not. The problem here seems to reside with the fact that people ascribe their personal feelings toward their own personal children onto other children, and therefore believe about other children as they would their own. This is an incorrect and illogical way to look at the situation, and once again, it is not your place to force your beliefs on others. (I swear to god, if either of you thinks it is a good idea to comment back here with, “well, you shouldn’t force your pro-abortion beliefs on us”, just shut the hell up before you begin – by making it legal for women to have that choice, it is NOT forcing it on you. Pro-choice means the choice to have your baby is fully supported as well.)
Now that that’s out of the way. In response to your last post, [Mother Superior]:
Living in America does not simply by virtue mean that we ALL have rights. Mention this to a black or gay person, even a woman who is socially aware, and you will likely get laughed out of the place. Are you kidding me? How long did African Americans have to fight for civil rights, not to mention freedom? How long have gays been fighting STILL for marriage rights, rights to even LIVE freely (see: Boys Don’t Cry, Brokeback Mtn., Stonewall riots)? How long have women been fighting for equal pay, etc? There are still large groups of maligned minorities in this country, and it is just ignorant to act like it doesn’t exist. Just because you feel that you are not personally affected, that does not mean that you shouldn’t care about others and hope for better.
I do know what Obamacare entails… did anyone actually read my previous comment? I even explained some aspects of it. Do I agree with it? No. But it is better than nothing. Do you believe that people who can’t afford healthcare should suffer and possibly die? My mother’s teeth are falling out and she can’t afford to go to the dentist because she doesn’t have healthcare. I haven’t seen a GYN since before I became sexually active, because I can’t afford even the co-pay for our insurance. My eyes are getting worse, but I have no eye insurance. Can you seriously look me in the face and tell me that I deserve to suffer, that my mother doesn’t deserve basic care?
As far as Michele Obama goes… I don’t even understand the point that you are attempting to make here. Do you think that she is using taxpayer’s funds to buy lingerie? I assure you that this family, despite being black, are not on welfare and do have their own source of income; she has the right to buy whatever she wants with their money, same as you do.
Finally, in reference to the economy, yes it does suck. My favorite explanation: a giant boulder is rolling down a mountain… how much effort do you think it would take to stop that boulder from continuing to roll? It takes a lot of time and a lot of effort to stop the economy from further tanking. Things always get worse before they get better. And I’m sorry, but if you honestly believe that Romney/Ryan can manage to stop that boulder day one AND lower taxes, you need to revisit first grade math. It is impossible to lower a revenue source (taxes 20% across the board is their plan) and still pay off the deficit. It’s like if I had bills totaling 300 dollars every week and my weekly paycheck is 20 dollars…IMPOSSIBLE. My debt would grow. Ryan is unable to even explain their math to the public, instead acting as if we are too stupid to understand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdZYZIqllCk Wow, a man who doesn’t understand basic sums and STILL talks down to you? He’s a keeper.
Again, I love you both. But seriously.
Look how articulate my post is! Surely it makes my point clearly, comments will be retracted, and we can move on in happiness. The first comment brightens my spirit and gives me renewed hope in humanity.
OP: Sarah all I’m saying is if woman does not want a baby she can keep her legs closed for one…not lie about birth control to the man and say she is on the pill when not (and I know none of these are you!!!) and know that there is always way a chance no matter what you do to try and not get pregnant you will and then there is always adoption I see no reason to kill an unborn baby. and I read something the other day about the government is now trying to get into your business of If you can get married or divorce or not? now this one I am not sure on but is that not taking away a woman’s right to choose who she marries and if she wants a divorce or not!!! and I would never ever get Angry at you for Speaking Your Mind!!! I Love you and that is your right even if we don’t agree on things I still Love you no matter WHAT!!! You have your own thoughts and beliefs and NO ONE can Changes those that is Who You Are and that makes you….YOU and I would not want you any other Way!!!!! I hope you feel the same about Me???? still Love you not matter What cause you are you : P
The second post, however, renewed my fear for humanity. Again, I believe the responses after this post speak quite clearly for my position, so I will refrain from too much commentary, when possible.
MS: Sarah, Sarah, Sarah…..I am really worried about you. If you do not want people to reply with their own opinions, then you should not post them on Facebook….however, I am family and I take offense to the way that you are speaking to me. First of all I don’t owe you any explanation. You will not change my opinion with your mindless jabber and liberal remarks. (1) I just will refrain from all the profanity because I think that it is disrespectful.
And how dare you tell me to be empathetic….when you think it is fine to end a life! And it is because of my beautiful daughter that I feel strongly…every soul deserves a chance to live!! You try telling my neighbor who just lost her baby at 5 months that that baby wasn’t a living thing….she held her precious baby girl that had all of her parts in her arms for hours (2), you tell her that, and you my dear are the one that will be laughed at!! Apparently, you need to visit 1st grade because you obviously didn’t read my first post. I am pro-life….simple as that! Until you have children of your own, I believe you should refrain from making such comments. (3)
I apologize that I didn’t know you we’re one of these liberalists that go around rallying gay rights, black rights, etc….I am honestly shocked by you!
And you talk about not affording health insurance, well your beloved Obama has been in office for awhile now…..why hasn’t he made this CHANGE!???! (4)
Going forward, try to remember to leave me out of your Facebook political wars! (5) As a mother, I have many more important matters at hand than to be involved in such harsh, judgmental conversations. (6) Leave those for your loving father.
I have never done anything to hurt you, (7) so I am shocked by your ridiculous outbursts!
You are in for a rude-awakening in life.
I am all for standing up for what you believe in but when it comes to family, you should know when to draw the line, that is just plain rude.
1. “Mindless jabber” and “liberal remarks”- how eloquently put! This post is clearly paving the way for a productive discussion…
2. Do women actually do this thing she mentions, hold a baby’s ‘parts’ in their arms? It sounds like a scene from a horror film. Ick.
3. So, I’m not allowed to have opinions/facts on children and abortion simply because I don’t have any children of my own? Well, according to her school of thought, I guess that MS herself isn’t allowed to have any opinions on being gay or black, or liberal or of having an abortion… simply by virtue of her not being one or having had an abortion. What an idiotic remark. If I had agreed with her opinion would I then be allowed to have an opinion on children/abortion?
4. Um… possibly because YOUR Republicans are blocking his efforts?
5. I don’t remember specifically asking this woman to speak… How can I leave someone out of something that they forced their way into?
6. Harsh and judgmental when I do it, sound and righteous when she does it.
7. She has never done anything to me… except make obnoxious comments about my family life. Problem here is, MS is so used to everyone immediately bowing to her will and getting everything in life handed to her that her first instinct is to go berserk on the one person who won’t step out of her way. She has never made an effort to be a part of my life or reach out to me in any way. She doesn’t know my life, she doesn’t care about my life. She is coming from a place of utter privilege and southern simple-mindedness. She has no business acting in the way she did. To steal a one-liner from her brethren: “Grow up.”
OP: Michele I so agree with you on the Pro Life stuff Like I have told people they give abortions up to like 8 months I do not know If they have changed this yet or not? but the do not educate these woman on what the baby looks like before an abortion!!! and now people are upset cause they want to educate them by giving them a sonogram first so they can see it’s a baby!!! well they don’t want that and why cause the know we are right and some might change their minds if they see it really is a baby and not cells or tissue!!! I just know I would never ever have an abortion even if it was rape or meant my life I would give my life for that child. I will get off my soap box on this issue now, and as far the Obama health care crap that is just what it crap that we will charged for that we don’t want and that is why I have said it is unconstitutional we are being forced to take it even if we don’t want IT that is my only point on that one and I will get off this soap box too!!! Love you all and God Help us if Obama gets back in!!!!!
Punky randomly jumps back into the fray: “the Republican Party does agree that it’s ok to have an abortion if this is the case or if the woman’s life is in danger.” Does anyone remember the H.R 358 bill that was know as the let women die in the floor act? The bill passed. I am sick of hearing this tell a girl to keep her legs closed and lying about birth control crap. Yes people lie, they give us all a bad name. But where’s the blame on the man who was too stupid and unwilling to put on a condom? Men who have 5 different baby mama’s are clearly a huge part of the problem.
OP: Crystal I so agree with that about the men also but at the same time Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time!!! If it;s not Rape then both parties are stupid for not using something man and woman but if a woman is not going to say hey put on a condom I am not on the pill or I am not taking any chances then she is stupid and so is the man for trusting her it goes both ways!!!! and also any woman who would go with a guy who has 4 kids by other woman should know she is number 5 and go else where for a guy. I would not date a guy who had 1 kid by another woman would not want all that drama.the big problem is abortion is not used to save lives it is used as birth control and we both know that and that is my problem with IT!!!!!!
When exactly did sex become a crime? Why must we act as if a sexual woman is something that deserves punishment? As for her flimsy ‘then she is stupid’ reasoning, what if the man lies about putting on a condom during consensual sex, a la the film Knocked Up? Do you still deserve to be punished? And in response of abortion not being used to save lives, lay that reasoning on the grave of Savita Halappanavar.
Sarah: I took awhile to respond to this because I did not feel that a heated response was the best option. Today, I write with a clear mind and a clear conscience.
The issue here was never with being allowed to speak one’s mind… at least, it wasn’t MY issue. I firmly believe that everyone is allowed their opinion, regardless of whether we disagree. I have never at any time in my life said that someone shouldn’t express their opinion to me. It is annoying for me to hear that you immediately assume that I don’t want to hear your opinion simply because I stated my own opinion in response. Which brings me to a point… it seems fairly evident that it is acceptable for you to comment on my status (completely of your own volition, by the way) with a comment that was offensive and hurtful to me, however I am not due an apologetic retraction of the statement or at the least given room to speak my own opinion freely in response. You speak that family deserves better treatment… I ask again, where is your apology for offending me? Am I not deserved of the particular family treatment that seems to absolve one from having to hear opinions (and sometimes facts) that one doesn’t particularly favor? This frame of mind seems hypocritical, to say the least.
I would also like to point out that while my use of the word ‘fucking’ may not have been lady-like, it was in no way a directed insult, more a means of emphatically expressing my hurt. However, your comment was rife with directed and intentionally harmful insults (while I actually was not bothered by most of your comments, I include the term ‘harmful’ because you clearly meant them as such.) I count ten direct insults, the one about my ‘loving father’ being by far the worst of them all. I am surprised that you would sink so low… Indefensible and unforgivable. I could take my precious time insulting you publicly in a comment here, but what would that grant me? If your only recourse to opinions that you disagree with is to lash out irrationally, it says to me that you would rather immaturely fight like 12 year olds than logically make an educated point (which perhaps you subconsciously feel you don’t actually have, which is why you are so angry with me…) There is no reason we can’t debate like adults. I will even go out on a limb here and say that I probably should have held back my anger a twinge. But even with my comment intact, I believe that I am still undeserving of the vitriol thrown at me yesterday.
On a side note, saying that I rally for gay/black/women’s rights as if it were an insult? No matter what tone or context you use when you say something like that, it will never be as offensive as you intend it to be and in fact, only serves to make you look like a bigot. Why is it shocking to you that I care about other people? We are no longer in the Reagan-helmed Me Decade; young people have gained compassion for others and not everyone thinks that they need to step on the backs of others in order to reach the top.
And once again, I would like to point out that I am not defending Obama to the death. I am not even planning to vote for him this election. I have said repeatedly that he should have done more with his legislation. I tire of hearing the YOUR PRECIOUS OBAMA trope. If you want to properly place blame for the insurance debacle, blame not just Obama but the perseverance of the precious free market economy that enables insurance to become a competitive, high-cost monolith. I do not wish to hear anything about ‘my Obama’ again, from anyone. I don’t own him or his political beliefs/agendas.
Finally, I find it hilarious that you said that my comment was ‘harsh and judgmental’… I am of the opinion that lumping a large group of people into a stereotype and calling them trash is pretty harsh and judgmental. You should probably learn a little more about your audience before you defend a statement like that. But even if you did know anything about me, you’d probably just use it all to insult me further.
I believed the conversation would end there but, when presented with a fine way to play the victim, Mother Superior isn’t willing to let it go to waste.
MS: Sarah, I really can’t believe your response……YOU replied to me with pure hatred….saying how f’n dare I and I expected more of you because of your daughter is basically saying I am a bad mother (1) and yes, I took it VERY personally!! Did you even read what you wrote??
As far as saying that about your Dad, your the one that brought him into the whole conversation saying you you felt unloved by him so I simply said why don’t you direct your hurtful, judgement remarks towards him and not me?? (2) You are taking everything I said out of context? Yet it’s fine for you to curse out [OP] and talk to me like I’m a nobody to you.
And yet, you have to nerve to turn it all around as if I am the one who was being unkind….Really!!??
I would expect much more from you. And I for one find it odd that after your Outburst…you are not voting for him. In my opinion you seem to be confused and hurt….but you are directing your rage towards all the people that care about you. I said in my first post that I have never done anything to hurt you and that is true. I can say everything that you said in your first post was harmful towards me, especially attacking my values as a parent. I will tell you that I will raise my kids with morals and christian values and hopefully they will be well-rounded. (3) I am also teaching them respect and hopefully they will, never grow up to speak, so out of line to an adult.
If you truly think that I lashed out at you…I think you need to see a psychiatrist. I had smileys at my first post…..I was simply talking politics, you were the one with the hurtful, attacking, remarks and I refuse to let you turn this whole thing around on me, absolutely refuse!
And you think I don’t have an educated response….I believe I have more years of school under my belt than you my dear….. (4) but yet you didn’t just insult me yet Again did you? It seems to me you are the hypocrite….and one day you may have to eat your words.
You claim to be so empathetic and caring….yet why are you so uncaring towards me? (5) I am appalled at your offensive remarks.
And yes, you should have held back your anger….because all it served was for me to see you have some serious issues. Why were you angry in the first place? (6) I thought the topic was open for discussion in a friendly manner not in a psychotic one. Yet, you say what I said is, unforgivable. I feel you are being one-sided and unfair. Be truthful in life….taking your emotional hurts out on other people will not get you anywhere.
Definition of a bigot- A prejudiced person that is intolerant of any opinions different than their own.
Definitely not me!! (7)
Don’t bother with a response I am finished with this conversation. (8)
1. Bad mom – she said it, not me.
2. Why would I direct my anger about abortion rights toward my father? Did SHE even bother to read what I wrote? Just admit it – you really wanted to say something shitty to me. Your excuses are getting sloppy, lady.
3. Her kids will be raised solely with Christian values… but yet they’ll be well-rounded? It’s much more likely that her children will grow up in a delusional bubble, just like she did, and attack other people for their ‘alternative lifestyle’ and beliefs that deviate from her bible. Or hey, maybe she’ll get a big ole dose of karma and her kids will be one of them gay-lovin’ hippies. A girl can dream.
4. More years of school? Mail-in beautician classes don’t count, honey.
5. I can’t believe I was so uncaring as to disagree with this woman. No humanitarian award for me this year.
6. Why am I so angry? Could it be because I’m just now finding out that you’re apparently a judgmental, self-righteous bitch who looks down on the commoners from her sparkly Barbie throne? Could it be that intolerance really isn’t my bag, baby? It’s anyone’s guess, really.
7. Thanks for defining the word ‘bigot’ for me. I’m not so sure that I am the one who needed the information, though. Maybe she should read it a little slower this time? It’s OK if your lips move.
8. She’s finished with the conversation? Typical Republican tactic to attempt to keep the upper hand.
At this point, White Knight feels the need to live up to his name.
WK: Ok, I was going to let this go as I had said my bit for the political argument, but now it has gone completely elsewhere. [Mother Superior], every comment you have left here on Sarah’s post, I repeat, Sarah’s post, has had some form of bigotry, hurtfulness, hatred, or all of the above. First of all, in your very first comment you said that your tax paying dollars are going to some trashy person for an abortion because she didn’t bother to get birth control. Since when have abortions ever been payed by the government? When has anyone even brought that up? I’m sure you heard it on Fox news or some buddy who is full of checked facts and it just became the truth. Secondly, implying only a trashy person would get abortion is HIGHLY offensive to thousands if not more, women across the country. Uh oh, the condom broke. TRASH! Uneducated about protective sex because your school has little to no proper sex education? Its your fault, should have left your legs closed you whore! TRASH! Raped? Shouldn’t have been wearing slutty clothes. TRASH! (Plenty of those in the Republican party believe even rape is not a good enough excuse.) I hate to crumble your view on reality, but people who are forced into the decision whether or not to get an abortion are normal everyday people, not the so called whores who you think just go around having random sex unprotected then rejoice in the thought of waiting till 8 months and aborting it. But I guess I can understand this as your viewpoint since its the picture painted by all of the fear and hate mongering republicans. “I didnt know you were one of these liberalists rallying black and gay rights…” Wow, are you serious? The 50’s called, they want their bigotry and mindless hate back. True definition of bigot: A person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race. If you find black and gay rights to be something wrong to “rally” then I believe you fall under that definition quite well. Now you say that Sarah is intolerant of your opinion, but that is just not true at all. The one and only comment that she was offended by enough to respond in anger was where you called people who get abortions trash. No where else has she exploded on you for voicing your opinion. “Leave those for your loving father” Underhanded strike much? She has every right to call you immature when you start slinging comments at her with the intent of harm. “I believe I have more years of school under my belt than you my dear” Big deal. If you knew anything about her, you would know that she cannot afford to go to college, but continues to educate herself in any way she can anyway. “I think you need to see a psychiatrist. I had smileys at my first post…..I was simply talking politics, you were the one with hurtful, attacking, remarks and I refuse to let you turn this whole thing around on me…” Firstly, telling her she needs to see a psychiatrist IS HURTFUL AND ATTACKING. Secondly, just because you used smileys does not erase the harm of the content. If you were simply talking politics then you would not be spewing your bigotry, racism and harmful comments. Finally, you say that she is turning this whole thing around on you, but you did the job yourself in those two sentences, not to mention everything else you had said. I don’t care if you read this or not, but I could not let slide someone talking so horribly to the woman I love.
Well said, White Knight – this is why I love you. But put on the poncho dear, because apparently you’ve begun some poo-slinging.
Now, here to drop some subtle hints, is Mrs. Norma Bates, staying ever so politically correct.
Norma Bates: I think that whether you agree with abortion or not, people will get them anyway, even if it becomes illegal, and if it were my child, (even if I thought she was wrong for it) I wouldn’t want her to die in some back alley abortion clinic because she made that decision…Maybe there are a few people that think nothing of aborting a baby, but I am sure for the majority, it is not an easy decision…I would want my child to be able to come to me, and know I love her no matter what. I would hate to think my daughter faced something like this alone and could not turn to me because she thought I would hate her for it. I love my daughters, I hope they never have an abortion, but if they did, they are still my children and I love them unconditionally….Feeling all alone and helpless is the worst feeling in the world. I try not to judge anyone any more because we /all/ do things that can be judged harshly by others. I would not want my daughters to live alone, with a hole in their hearts, because they feel that I would hate them, or think they are trash….It would break my heart for them as a parent, but my job is to love them…
This does no good, however, as Mother Superior sees this as the perfect moment to attempt to garner a little more sympathy (why she isn’t immediately taking offense at Norma for basically calling her a bad mother is anyone’s guess). Cue the tiny violin, please.
MS: @[White Knight], I don’t know you so therefore a reply to you is unnecessary. (1) To everyone else in the family, my term of “trash” was referring to all the women that use abortion as a means of birth control…..but those of you who know me, would know what kind of person I am and how much I do care about people. (2) Why is it fine for you liberal minded people to preach women’s rights, gay’s rights, african-American’s rights, but what about the unborn child’s rights?? (3) I don’t care if you’re family or who you are I will not tolerate anyone belittling and insulting me publicly on Facebook. I am not one of those people that gets involved in heated political debates. That being said anyone that can read, will be able to see that Sarah, turned this into a personal attack. [Dr. A Repooblican] has told me that he has spoken politics with Sarah on several different occasions and he was never personally attacked and berated the way I have been. (4)
I have always posted kind-hearted remarks to you, Sarah, in the past. Wished you luck with all of your interviews, always commenting positively to you so I am confused as to why you felt the need to turn this into something personal and hurtful. I am not going to be anyone’s punching bag….have a great weekend. (6)
1. So, because she doesn’t personally know White Knight, he doesn’t deserve respect? I’m sorry, but what a cunt.
2. I am acquainted with her, and I did not know what kind of person she is. Now I do. She’s a bigot, hiding behind a pretty face.
3. Women, LGBTs, African-Americans (Note the irony of her sudden need for PC language), unborn babies – one of these things is not like the other… Something that is not officially classified as a person (not even by the Bible…. make sure you’re reading closely!) does not have civil rights. Speak to me when it breathes oxygen.
4. Dr. A Repooblican was not ‘attacked’ because he spoke to me like I am a human being. If you’re going to act like a child, don’t be surprised when you get spanked.
5. I, am confused as to why, you use, so many commas, all the time.
6. Always finish on a high note of passive aggressiveness! 😉
So. The next comment on this thread… is just precious.
Mother Matriarch: Norma Bates – Of course [Mother Superior] and I or any mother would love their daughter unconditionally and our God teaches us love and forgiveness; which [MS] and our whole family believe! (1) We are prolife. [MS] is an awesome mother; I would say even better than I was able to be.She has not had everything easy. She has worked hard and suffered pain in this life as we all have. Life is not easy. [MS] has friends from all lifestyles and has always gotten along with everyone. She is no BIGOT and Sarah should know that! I’ve always loved Sarah and that won’t change. You don’t have discussions by beginning them with cursing remarks towards others after expressing that you love them! I feel that’s where it went off track. (4) Our country was founded under GOD, with christian values and beliefs. Forgiveness and mercy should be expressed to those who miss the mark of GOD’S best for us! America has gotten away from being under a loving GOD to a “me- generation”, saying we decide what’s right and wrong, not our Creator! We need to look in the Word of GOD, which our country was founded on, to see what HE says about the issues that were discussed. (5) We all have been given freedoms by being in this great country of America which began as a country UNDER GOD! Check out our founding Fathers and see what they believed! I do realize not everyone reading this believes these principles anymore and might say God should be left out; (3) but these are not just political issues but also moral issues. Jesus Christ is our forgiveness ; God is our final judge ! God is where we find truth not in ourselves.Our founding fathers knew this. (6,7) No offense meant towards anyone .I’m just supporting [MS] ;because I know the wonderful person she really is ,our great country of America with it’s founding principles and our AWESOME GOD!
1. Really? Because I’m not feeling the whole forgiveness thing so much, here.
2. I see from whom Mother Superior learned grammar.
3. You acknowledge that not everyone believes the way you do… but you’re gonna preach at us and tell us we’re wrong anyway.
4. The best part to me in all this is that everyone is acting as if MS has never uttered a word worse than ‘golly’. I love the undeserved high and mighty attitude. My cursing is where it all went off track? So, once again the blame is placed on my response, not the initial offensive comment (because my feelings don’t matter!). It’s immature to act as if you are incapable of listening to someone who expresses themselves in a passionate manner that is different from your own. I do not believe that it was my cursing that caused them to plug their ears and yell ‘LA LA LA’ – it was the mere fact that I invalidated their opinions and they have no real rebuttal to my logic and empathy.
6. Our founding fathers believed in slavery. Our founding fathers did not grant women the right to vote. Our founding fathers were not infallible.
7. Blind support of a person who is clearly wrong: How we ended up with 8 glorious years of G.W. Bush.
Mrs. Bates tries once more to speak her particular brand of sense, before things again take a superb downturn.
Norma Bates: I think [Mother Superior] and Sarah are /both/ wonderful people, I would never think or say otherwise, and I am prolife as well, I think Sarah used a curse word to express herself more than to direct it at an individual. She knows how I believe and we argue about it, but that is life, everyone has an opinion….And we all know what Revelation says, so the downfall of this country is imminent anyways in my opinion….You can’t force someone to believe something if they don’t, which is what I tell her as well…
And I did tell her she should not have used that term, because like that time [Aunt Pious] said [OP] cursed her out when she was just cursing in general…It comes across wrong, but she is grown and out of the house now…
I do have to say the bit about her father and the psychiatrist was not very nice either, since everyone knows how the kids dad has done them….Sarah is a wonderful person, who cares about everyone, she takes a stand and I am proud of her for that. [OP] and Sarah have always talked to each other like that, it is just their way together…..So I think she is cool with that….
This is a quote from the reply Sarah originally gave: ” [MS] and [OP], I want you to know that I love you both. Please remember this, because I am about to go into an emotional tirade, and I want you to know that despite it, I mean no real harm with my words”
Dr. A. Repooblican makes his reappearance, and promptly loses all credibility from our previous debates: [In order to retain the slight anonymity in this post, I have removed the partially identifiable name Dr. A. used in reference to White Knight, a name similar in spelling to his, but most definitely not his name, proving that not only does no one in this group care about me or anyone I care about, they are so self-involved that they no longer feel the need to extend respect to anyone or even actually read any part of the discussion that is not in their favor.],
You should have kept your posts to politics only. You are NOT family and this was clearly a discussion between them. (1)
So if no tax dollars are used for abortions, how do women who can’t afford it get them? Medicaid is funded by taxes (Medicaid covers abortions in certain states). Planned parenthood in part is funded by federal tax dollars. So yes some tax dollars are used for abortions. You don’t have to watch Fox News to figure that one out.
[Mother Superior’s] response was not calling all women who get abortions trash. She was talking about women who use it as a form of contraception. Yes there are probably many women who do this once in there life (wether I believe in it or not) and it is an extremely difficult decision. I don’t believe in it except for extreme circumstances such as rape, mother’s health, etc. But that is my opinion.
But there are people that abuse the system and use it as their consistent back up plan. No one will ever convince a pro-life person that a fetus is simply vegetation. So one should try not to tout that as fact or truth and simply state it as their opinion. But that is very personally upsetting to people the same way you say that calling women that use abortions as contraception trash. So if you look at it, [MS] never attacked Sarah first. Sarah chose to take the abortion comment personally but it was never directed at her. (2)
Then came the tirade of personal attacks and everything has gotten out of hand. The problem with facebook, is anyone can say anything behind a computer and things sound different when typed than when said in context of a face to face discussion. Guaranteed this conversation would have gone differently if it were between FAMLIY face to face. (3) This is certainly not the forum to discuss personal things like many choose to do or even trying to incite arguments about politics and religion.
Some of Sarah’s posts, even when she thinks she is coming across as maturely discussing opinions, come across a little condescending. I’m not trying to start an argument with Sarah. Just stating an opinion. And your comments, [WK] certainly meet that criteria as well. (4) [Mother Superior’s] comment of gay/ black rights was not meant the way it sounded. You can say what you want, but I know my sister and she is certainly not a bigot. If you were FAMILY you would know that, but we already covered that point.
The point that many, including my sister try to make is that every one has rights given to them from God. Not Gay versus black, versus whatever. Rights are not given by the government as many think. Yes African Americans have been discriminated in the past as well as today. So have many other people. No one is arguing that. But what is a right and what is an entitlement? “I have the right to a free bama phone.” What’s next, free plasma TV’s? (5) Planned parenthood is not a right. It is a government program.
Government programs do not equal rights. Once you give Government the power to give rights, they also have the power to take rights. (6) Pandora’s Box. Government is the most inefficient entity on the planet. Look at the VA medical service. Look at the Post Office. Look at the future of healthcare. Everything it touches goes to pot. (7) You want to discuss how Obama care affects health care, talk to a healthcare professional. Not a politician that wants your vote. Because they know if enough people become reliant on government they will be indestructible. We are on our way to a dependent society where everyone is entitled to everything. What ever happened to self reliance and hard work. Don’t get me wrong, we need to help the poor, but not by making them dependents. (8) The current course of government is unsustainable as is and the answer certainly isn’t spend more money, give more hand outs, and amass more debt. That’s been tried before. See Greece. I think both parties said some things in the heat that came out wrong. Again, that’s the problem with facebook.
1. At what point was this a discussion solely between family? From what I could glean from others, the only reason other people didn’t get involved is because it’s always more fun to watch the drama unfold without becoming a source of ire yourself. Plenty of people were annoyed though, but not by me. I actually received phone calls congratulating me on my conviction.
2. So, I chose to be offended? Silly me, I must have forgotten how much fun being offended can be. But using that train of logic, did not Mother Superior choose to be offended? What an idiotic way to try to spin logic to your advantage.
3. It’s cute that Dr. A. thinks I would lose my gumption if I weren’t hiding behind my keyboard.
4. Yeah, people who are unable to express themselves articulately and generally lack an overall point do tend to feel that they’re being talked down to. Same for the people who lash out irrationally. It’s the same reason as why dumb bullies hate nerds.
5. OK…. what?
6. So…. you’re saying the government doesn’t currently give and take away rights? Tell that to inmates on Death Row. And while you’re at it, hit up the prison library and check out a copy of the beloved Constitution – that there is one big ole rights-giver if I’ve ever seen one.
7. Not everything the government touches goes to pot… it’s usually just the stuff the Republicans touch.
8. So there is an alternative way to help the poor that doesn’t involve money? Please sir, enlighten me to your way of thinking.
So at this point, I felt I needed to seriously set Dr. A straight, because his post is rife with misinformation. Behold, the tell-off-with-a-smile, the virtual Bless-his-Heart:
Sarah: The Hyde Amendment ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyde_amendment ) since 1976 (3 years after Roe v. Wade) has forbidden the use of federal gov’t funds toward abortion. There are 17 states (http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/public_funding.html) that have taken it upon themselves to pick up the slack and provide abortion funds for all abortions through Medicaid with the use of STATE tax coffers, however that list does not include [the 3 states in which we live]. (However, all three states are covered in Medicaid under the Hyde Amendment, which has exceptions for rape, incest, and physical endangerment only.) In addition, of all the services that Planned Parenthood (a non-profit organization, not a gov’t program) provides (which includes cancer screenings, gyn exams, STD testing and treatment, etc.- all very important services that deserve gov’t funding) only 3% (out of 100%) is abortion and of that 3%, the federal funds provided to PP are STILL disallowed for use for abortions by federal law. ( http://www.factcheck.org/2011/04/planned-parenthood/ ). Those are cold, hard facts. Facts which prove that none of our (meaning all of the people who have commented on this status) tax dollars have paid for an abortion that we do not agree is justifiable (rape, etc.)
In the same way that I took the ‘trash’ comment personally, so did [MS] with the vegetation comment (which WAS stated as an opinion) and my use of the word ‘fucking’. And honestly, if that is what this debacle all boils down to, the fact that I curse to convey emphasis (I am not the only one in the family to do so!) and the fact that I have a different opinion about unborn babies than some of you, not only is that not at all fair or rational, but it is just stupid. I will always believe in EVERYONE’S right to state their opinion… but I also believe in apologizing if you’ve hurt someone’s feelings with a comment that they feel a personal connection to, on whatever level. [MS] NEVER acknowledged my hurt feelings, never made me feel like it was OK to have my own opinion, and then it seemed to me, somehow expected me to prostrate myself and admit blame for everything. She is most definitely not innocent here, like you all are acting. At worst, I am guilty of using a curse word in her vicinity and never apologizing to her for doing so (which was purposeful, after the things she said to me). I was very personally attacked, and I will never feel that I was due that sort of anger in this situation. That being said, yes I would imagine that I could come off condescending at times; I attribute it to the nature of the language I use, but not necessarily in the tone (not clearly conveyed on FB, obviously.) Aside from that, I do my research and I attempt to actually be educated on a topic before I definitively speak on it (e.g. without the use of ‘i think’,’i’m not sure’, etc.) and if that makes me condescending, well, I wouldn’t have it any other way. I would very much like an elaboration on what the black/gay comment literally meant though, because from where I am coming from, there isn’t much room for interpretation. I’m sure it was supposed to be an insult, attempting to paint me as a radical, but I stand by my original statement that it came off as bigoted. Also, the fact that she unfriended me because we had a disagreement is, in my opinion, very juvenile.
Honestly, you’re right, Facebook (or text in general) is never the best place for an outright argument. But it has happened, nevertheless. I do prefer to keep my political debates at a political level and not personal – there is no room for personal attacks, etc., in a debate, it cheapens it and brings nothing to the conversation. I also believe that if [Mother Superior] had a serious problem with me and wanted to keep it private, she should have messaged me. By everyone continuing to post here, it keeps this argument VERY public (I have noticed several ‘likes’ from people not even involved in the conversation) and therefore people who are not directly involved are going to comment. This brings me to a very important point: this argument was never strictly between family. It was posted and continued publicly on my Facebook page. I would like to stress that this is my Facebook page… I really don’t take kindly to anyone commenting negatively towards my boyfriend [White Knight] for involving himself in the argument; he has just as much right to comment here as anyone who is defending [Mother Superior] does. He is MY family, the person closest to me, whom I live with and love, and I really wish you would apologize for speaking down to him. I would rather not start out his experiences with my extended family negatively, especially as his entire family has been nothing but kind and helpful and accepting of me. (At this point I feel that I should mention that this argument has left me with the idea that none of you seem to know what is going on with my life… No one seems to be aware that I am an adult [MS mentioned something about my speaking to an adult in a certain way as if I am still a child], that I live with my boyfriend in an apartment in [Southern Town]…. all facts that one should know simply by being friends with me on FB, if not through my mother. If I am correct [feel free to let me know if I’m wrong here] it makes me wonder how the term ‘family’ can be thrown around with such indignation…)
Lastly, hard work means nothing in this country any more. WK and I work hard for a piddling amount of money which barely pays our rent and doesn’t afford us anything leftover for food, much less healthcare. I have to point to the NHS (in the UK) as a perfect example of a country that can still strive whilst providing free healthcare for its citizens. Greece isn’t failing because it provided healthcare inefficiently, it failed because of its debt to other countries and its failure at collecting taxes properly ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/06/greek-debt-crisis-economy ). When the US finally gets its head together and starts taxing the uber-wealthy appropriately we will finally be at a place to begin to pull ourselves out of the muck.
That post probably took me 45 minutes to tap out. In response, I get this:
Dr. A. Repooblican: We are in agreement. Hard work means nothing in this country anymore.
Clearly meant to be a sarcastic, back-handed response. Way to be mature, dude. The drama continues publicly for a bit, but quickly fizzles.
Punky Bruiser: I don’t even know what to say anymore. It saddens me that family can let things get so out of hand and even resorting to deleting each other. The thing that is supposed to make family so special is the fact that we can go through anything with each other and still love that person.
I would also like to comment on the [White Knight] issue. He shares his life with our family so to me that make him family and i don’t take gladly to people being rude to him. If this was [Mrs. A. Repooblican] when you guys were still dating wouldn’t you defend her too?
Dr. A: You may consider him family, but he tore into Michele on stupid public website. He doesn’t know her at all. [Mrs. A] doesn’t do crap like this on Facebook because this is not the place. [Mrs. A.] would have more sense than to pass judgment on my family before getting to know them.
I think we should discuss this privately, but a delete on facebook does not mean she doesn’t love Sarah. She is just hurt and didn’t want to look at this crap anymore. We still love y’all. Nothing will change that. Just needed to take up for my sister. We still need to get together as a family. Sarah can talk all the politics she wants. But I am certainly going to refrain from politics on Facebook. It is destructive as people can see. I still want to get yall over to [my house]. It will be fun. Lets let this post rest in peace.
Unable to let the dead stay dead, I attempted one more time to appeal to Dr. A.’s common sense, this time in a private message, as he requested.
Sarah: [Dr. A.],
I am taking a leap here and continuing this conversation privately as you indicated that you would prefer. I am hesitant even to call it a conversation, as I don’t think either of us wish to prolong this too much longer, but I really needed to say my piece.
So, in response to your last post: [White Knight] has just as much right to take up for his girlfriend as you do for [your sister]… [WK] ‘tore into’ [Mother Superior] because SHE tore into me for no real reason. Why is this fact continuing to go ignored? From where I am standing, it looks like [MS] is receiving extremely preferential treatment. I am being reduced to an outsider in the family once again, and I really hate that. Standing up for [MS] so staunchly without even a nod toward her own wrongdoing may make you the best brother in the world, but it is alienating a few others. I’ve honestly never really fit in with anyone in the family and I’ve never felt completely embraced (I make further mention of the fact that I don’t feel that anyone knows or cares what is going on in my life) and this argument has done nothing but solidify my feelings… I have always wanted to be close to you guys but age, distance, my shyness, and (I feel) self-segregation has impeded this. You mentioned in regard to [WK] commenting that if he were family and knew [MS], he would know that she isn’t racist/mean, etc. But I AM family, and I am the one who originally told her that she came off that way (came off that way, never that she definitely is that way). If someone is appearing a certain way, regardless of whether they actually are that way, people are going to assume it’s true, whether or not they know the person closely. It has proven true in this ordeal that perception is largely reality, and unfortunately a lot of people took things at face value (or sometimes, simply took what they wanted to believe) and ran with it.
Finally, I need to point out: you continue to insult [WK] (this is my opinion from what I read on FB – e.g. implying he has no sense and is rude and then ignoring my request for an apology to promote better relations), won’t acknowledge my feelings at all in this matter as if [MS] is the only person in the world who matters to any of you, and then you invite me to your house? How do you expect me to be comfortable with that? It is my opinion that that would be the most awkward gathering ever, would not be a safe space for me or my boyfriend, and there would still be a lot of hard feelings all around.
I began my original post by making it very clear that I did not mean any harm by what I outright admitted was going to be an emotional response. Rationally, [MS] should not have gotten angered. But most importantly, we should both have the maturity to refrain from personal insults (or at least apologize after hurling them anyway) and to make up and move past it, as family should matter more than a stupid political disagreement.
I hope you will respond.
P.S. I don’t think that deleting me from her friend’s list will keep her from receiving updates on the post. She will have to either delete her posts or block me completely. At least that has been my experience with FB.
Dr. A. responds:
I understand where you are coming from. But, let me try to explain her point of view, although it would be better if you and [Mother Superior] hashed this out. I would be happy to facilitate this because I hate what it is doing to our family.
[MS] started off trying to just submit an opinion of hers that you took very personally. It wasn’t a personal insult to you. Even though your response had the disclaimer (its kinda like saying don’t take this personally but you suck), your response took her off guard and hurt her feelings. She felt she was getting attacked on several levels. Her motherhood, education, etc. I did not condone her retaliation and told her my self she said some things she shouldn’t have. (1) I clearly stated on Facebook that I felt both parties said some things they probably shouldn’t. So its not like I was saying [MS] was without fault. People didn’t really get involved until your boyfriend attacked [MS]. I was not going to get involved until he attacked [MS]’s character, which I stand by the opinion that he should not have done that. (2) If you wanted relations between our families to not be weird, I think you should have persuaded him to not do that. Perhaps he did it without you first knowing. I don’t know. But, you were doing just fine by yourself. [MS]’s husband didn’t get involved.
But now all that is said and done and you want me to apologize for what I said, which has to be the least of all the things that was said. I would have no problem doing that if he apologized to [MS] for what he said. [MS] is not anti-gay or anti- black or a bigot. I don’t care how the Facebook post sounded. Again that’s the problem with Facebook and he simply doesn’t know [MS] enough to make those accusations. I agree, you and [MS] should both apologize and bury the hatchet. She as well as you are not without fault here. You may not think what you said was a personal attack, but think about how you took her comment of abortions personally and it wasn’t even directed at you. (3) Your response was directed at her. She is not one for all the cussing so that put her on the defensive as well. (4)
I have been inviting you and your family over for a year now. Just because of what happened, I’m not rescinding my invitation. I’ve always loved your family (that includes you) and wanted us to spend more time together, but for me, I’ve been in school for a lifetime and have simply not had the time or lived close enough for that to happen. Now I have both.
I know I may not fully understand the hurdles you are having in your life right now. Mostly because I have no way of knowing. Another reason families need to hang out more. But I can tell you without a doubt that I do care about what’s going on with you and your life and so does our family. I do understand that it has been difficult growing up in your house and have always sympathized with all of you. So I understand that what [MS] said about your father was a low blow. I think she was trying to say that you should point your anger towards him because she knows you haven’t had it easy. But again, not defending that at all. (5)
As for the facebook unfriending thing. I have no idea how that works. I don’t even have a facebook account. Mainly because of all of this public crap that can happen.
1. Telling someone privately that they said some shitty things is an entirely different thing from telling everyone else involved that you think that person said some shitty things. It’s a clear attempt to protect the wrong party’s feelings/reputation/ego, and deprives the other party from feeling the support that they need from you. You end up looking like an asshole, or worse, a lying asshole playing both sides.
2. From what’s being repeated over and over, it seems to be the case that it is totally fine for me to call a member of my family on their bullshit, but if someone outside of the family does it they deserve stoning. What, are we the Italian mob? When did we start circling wagons around this kind of crap? In my view, no matter who calls you on it, if you’re wrong you’re wrong. End of story.
In addition, if Dr. A. expects me to believe that absolutely no one else would have jumped to MS’s aid during all of this, he is delusional. I would have been bombarded by posts talking about what a great person she is, how horrible I am, etc., and I would have no one watching my back. Which honestly, is likely exactly what they want.
3. It does not matter whether something was intended to be a personal attack or not – if you hurt someone’s feelings, you fucking apologize. I certainly would have apologized that my cursing hurt her feelings or whatever, but only in a sane world, certainly not after the type of irrational reaction and aversion to apology that I was getting.
4. What a blatant lie. Anyone in my family who cares to be truthful would tell you that she has been no stranger to cursing and in fact has done so in front of me, when I was a child. Yet I am wrong for cursing in my Facebook post to a grown-ass woman.
5. Dr. A. almost went out on a high note, but he killed it when he again attempted to defend the indefensible.
After this message, I responded again:
A few things:
1. I would definitely talk it out with [MS] in person, after enough time has passed for heated feelings to dissipate. I do not think that I would take back my ‘how dare you’ comment (minus the f word), however. In the same way that I clearly did not know my audience regarding cursing, [MS] did not know her audience with her ‘trash’ comment. Not that that is either of our faults, necessarily; on her part, she probably assumed that I aligned more with the rest of the family re: pro-life views, which is not an off-base assumption given the state that we live in. But I am fiercely pro-reproductive/women’s rights, and I just looked at it like, what if I myself had had an abortion for some reason? I also personally know women who have had one, and they’re not bad people… I specifically asked about her views on Plan B because I have used that, and while that is not abortion, in the eyes of Republicans, it’s at least a close cousin. I couldn’t help but feel a little judged by it, simply because if I had not known about Plan B for some reason and gotten in trouble, I would have had an abortion, my family wouldn’t have known, and that comment would have hurt (even more) deeply and I would not be able to say exactly why because of our family’s views. Food for thought. I know that she meant the serial for-birth-control abortion users (who quite honestly I would estimate to make up 1% of abortions) but it still felt as if we were all being lumped in and judged.
2. Most of the perceived attacks from me were actually not meant to be attacks at all (unlike the psychotic thing from [MS] – still a little hung up on that, if you can’t tell. I had a verbally abusive boyfriend who threw that at me often. It sticks with you. It’s not her fault, she didn’t know… but regardless, the comments were off-base.) I mentioned [Daughter Superior] because she is the female that [MS] cares for the most; if not [Daughter Superior], I would have mentioned [Matriarch]. I just wanted to illustrate the emotional factor there, and help her see that the women who may seek an abortion are largely not trash. I also used the term ‘educated’ to mean that she didn’t seem to come with facts, just conjecture, and that she was being personal, not political.
I received no further responses. As of the date of this blog post, Mother Superior and I have neither spoken to nor befriended each other. Family members continue to deny wrongdoing on her part and instead place the majority of the blame on me. Outsiders, often without provocation, continue to place the majority of the blame on her. I guess it just goes to show you: the family members that agree with each other will collectively throw shit on the ones that don’t.
So there you have it. The entirely-too-long account of my most recent tarring-and-feathering.
May it bring you insight on the best way to deal with this sort of thing.